This conversation is early in the term so I am still posting frequently to encourage scholarly discussion.
I am aware that some recommend that the instructor stay out of the discussion board. I tried that one term with this course and the situation deteriorated rapidly. The students were too insecure with the statistics and the novelty of an online class. I now start "heavy" and gradually pull back as students gain in confidence.
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics
etc. Read 22 times
Date: Mon Jan 26 2004 12:29 pm
Author: AD
Subject: Poor Ricky
My first assumption of Ricky is that he seems like he might have a problem with
admitting his faults. We didn't have much about him in the article, but it talked
about how he thinks that his coach doesn't "see his ability". Now
maybe this is true, and maybe I should give him the benefit of the doubt. Rather
then labeling him I am going to sort his problem into two possible categories.
1. I have a feeling that Ricky would rather think he is perfect (or close to it) then to listen to how he could improve. I understand that if this is true, then Ricky is just human. A lot of people have trouble admitting their own faults. Ricky in this case would have the problem of trying to realize his shortcomings, since it is possible that he is oblivious to them.
2. IF my first assessment
is wrong and he is some star player, and it is his coach's inability to see
this then he has a totally different problem. The problem then would be that
he needs to figure out a way to communicate this with the coach without stepping
on the coach's toes. What I mean by this is that he just can't go up to the
coach and say "Hey you need to wise up and realize I am a good player".
If he did this then it would accomplish nothing.
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics
etc. Read 17 times
Date: Mon Jan 26 2004 12:31 pm
Author: Kuhlenschmidt, Sally <sally.kuhlenschmidt@wku.edu>
Subject: Re: Poor Ricky
Good idea to break it into 2 parts or points of views. Now, can anyone suggest
how data or statistics or measurement help resolve the dilemma?
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 18 times
Date: Mon Jan 26 2004 3:17 pm
Author: MH
Subject: Poor Ricky
Ricky's situation is not unlike most basketball players warming benches across
the country, but if he truly is better than Jeffries or any other player on
the team, he should use stats to prove his claims. By aligning his own stats
(i.e., Points Per Game, PPG) against that of another player he could demonstrate
his superior ability to the coach.
However, there are a couple of factors that Ricky must keep in mind. One is
his position on the basketball team. He mentioned that Jeffries is 7ft tall.
This means that he is likely the team's center and probably is most responsible
for rebounding and scoring. If Ricky is smaller, he cannot expect to get as
many rebounds as Jeffries, and likewise, he cannot expect Jeffries to get as
many assists as him (a stat generally dominated by point guards of smaller stature).
Therefore, Ricky must make his comparisons with players of similar height &
weight and more specifically who play the same position as him.
Secondly, Ricky must focus on averages as opposed to totals. If Jeffries is
playing a considerable more amount of time than Ricky, his point total for the
year will likely be higher than Ricky's (the same is true for a negative stat
such as turnovers--Ricky will probably have less, but that will only demonstrate
that he has touched the ball less because he has been on the bench). I would
suggest that Ricky computes his PPG in terms of Minutes Per Game (MPG). This
should level the field. If Ricky is scoring 5 PPG and playing 5 MPG, while Jeffries
is scoring 15 PPG in 25 MPG, than at face value one could guess that Jeffries
is a more effective basketball player. However, if you use the above statistics
for prediction, you could say that given Jeffries' amount of playing time, Ricky
would score close to 25 PPG, or 10 more than Jeffries.
Ricky should quit his whining and do some statistical calculation to determine
if he truly is better than anyone else on team.
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 12 times
Date: Tue Jan 27 2004 6:10 pm
Author: Kuhlenschmidt, Sally <sally.kuhlenschmidt@wku.edu>
Subject: Re: Poor Ricky
Nice work-- you've identified several considerations, including who the appropriate
comparison is (in this case in terms of position) and also selected a statistic
that takes context into account (MPG)
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 12 times
Date: Thu Jan 29 2004 7:57 pm
Author: KS
Subject: if he were to present information about himself, without comparison?
If ricky presented information without comparing himself to others or comparing
himself to his performance at the begining of the season, I think this would
be the most persuasive of the arguements. Because comparing himsef to another
player would take the attention off of himself and the coach would have another
player in mind, while ricky is trying to plead his case. Also, if Ricky presents
information about himself it could prove to the coach that Ricky has given his
performance alot of thought and he is willing to work harder and longer to become
what the coach is looking for. I look at this like when I go to a job interview,
I would not compare myself to the boss's favorite employee. This could cause
the boss to be angry. So I talk about what assets I have to improve my standing
and not try to knock down anyone else in the meantime.
Therefore Ricky presenting
information only, can almost be manipulating, because it is his biased opinion,
but hey whatever works,
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 7 times
Date: Fri Jan 30 2004 1:12 pm
Author: Kuhlenschmidt, Sally <sally.kuhlenschmidt@wku.edu>
Subject: Re: if he were to present information about himself, without comparison?
You are correct, from Ricky's point of view, presenting his information just
for himself may be the best image.
However, the person making
the decision is the coach-- and what type of comparison is he using, regardless
of what Ricky does?
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 7 times
Date: Sat Jan 31 2004 7:52 am
Author: KS
Subject: Re: if he were to present information about himself, without comparison?
The coach is using a comparison of others. According to Ricky's performance
it might never be as good as the others that the coach is comparing him to.
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 5 times
Date: Sun Feb 1 2004 9:49 am
Author: Kuhlenschmidt, Sally <sally.kuhlenschmidt@wku.edu>
Subject: Re: if he were to present information about himself, without comparison?
very good-- exactly the issue to keep in mind whenever you are arguing a case.
The boss/teacher, whomever, typically is making a comparison to others or to
an absolute standard (e.g., did your patient die?).
If you only present information
in comparison to self, then you won't get very far in convincing the boss because
he/she/it is literally thinking differently about the decision than you are.
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 6 times
Date: Sun Feb 1 2004 4:15 pm
Author: MP
Subject: Re: if he were to present information about himself, without comparison?
If Ricky only presented his stats then he may show that he improved, but his
improvement doesn't mean much to the coach if it is not good or better than
Ricky's other teammates. So, possibly for the best results he could individually
show his own results and the improvement he has made, and then have a comparison
of himself to the team. I think this would be more effective than just giving
his individual stats.
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SECOND THREAD
We do cover topics other than the case in our discussions. Here's the 2nd thread in this forum.
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics
etc. Read 29 times
Date: Sun Jan 25 2004 3:48 pm
Author: Kuhlenschmidt, Sally <sally.kuhlenschmidt@wku.edu>
Subject: Scales of Measurement
See if you can come up with an example, perhaps from a hobby, of each of at
least 3 of the scales of measurement.
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics
etc. Read 14 times
Date: Mon Jan 26 2004 3:24 pm
Author: MH
Subject: Re: Scales of Measurement
I work in the Philosophy & Religion Dept and to ensure that tests are graded
fairly, professors will often assign numbers to the tests as opposed to viewing
their names. On this level a NOMINAL Scale is in place because numbers are used
to identify the individual tests. After grading a test, a professor will sometimes
ask me to rank the test so he/she may hand them out in terms of the poorest
grade to the best. At this level, the tests are measured on an ORDINAL Scale
because their rank corresponds with their score's relation to the others in
the class on the test. It is not until scores are recorded in a gradebook, and
placed alongside one another that one can see how far apart each person is from
the next. At this point, the scale being applied is an INTERVAL Scale because
the size of the difference between each score can be assessed and is corresponding
to the person's achievement.
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 12 times
Date: Tue Jan 27 2004 6:14 pm
Author: Kuhlenschmidt, Sally <sally.kuhlenschmidt@wku.edu>
Subject: Re: Scales of Measurement
Excellent Nominal and ordinal scales...but the interval one is trickier.
How do you know that the difference between a 90 and a 95 is the same amount of philosophy knowledge as the difference between a 70 and a 75?
Knowledge doesn't generally lend itself to tidy increments. Classroom tests are generally ordinal. You can know that a 90 is more than a 70, but not really know how much more.
The temperature in the room
is interval.
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 14 times
Date: Wed Jan 28 2004 3:32 pm
Author: MH
Subject: Re: Scales of Measurement
So is this to say that knowledge can never be measured on an interval scale?
I understand what you mean but it seems that the only way to measure something
such as knowledge would be to assign scores to particular levels of knowledge.
Given that a professor does this and provides a clear, objective test, wouldn't
the results yield scores where we could determine how much more knowledgeable
each person was than the next based upon the score? I guess I am a little confused
at what interval scales yield.
-MH
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 12 times
Date: Thu Jan 29 2004 1:19 pm
Author: KS
Subject: Re: Scales of Measurement
with the concept of knowledge, sally told me that a person is more or less intelligent
that another, yet intelligence does not have an absolute zero. Also, intelligence
can not be a ration. For example, twice or half as smart.
I hope that I understood
your question, if I did not just disregard this.
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 11 times
Date: Thu Jan 29 2004 5:11 pm
Author: Kuhlenschmidt, Sally <sally.kuhlenschmidt@wku.edu>
Subject: Re: Scales of Measurement
KS-- very good.
MH-- you have to be very precise in your language. One can tell that a person
knows *more* than another person. But you don't know *how much more*-- you don't
know how big the interval is. It may be huge or it may be small.
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 13 times
Date: Fri Jan 30 2004 11:13 am
Author: AK
Subject: Re: Scales of Measurement
I went to go get gas the other day and noticed that the pumps had numbers to
identify them - this would be an example of a nominal scale. My roommate and
I were looking for apartments for next year in the classifides. We foud eight
apartments that we liked and made a list of them ranking them from least expensive
to most expensive - the lower the number, the lower the price - This would be
an example of an ordinal scale. Now this one is a little harder and let me know
if I get it right. We were leading worship at the BSU and were doing sound checks.
Turning the volume on mic's up and down on the sound board would be an example
of a ratio scale because it has an absolute zero point?? Let me no if I'm understanding
that one.
AK
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 9 times
Date: Fri Jan 30 2004 5:02 pm
Author: AD
Subject: Re: Scales of Measurement
Wow I would've never thought of anything like a sound check, or ranking apartments
in order of how I liked them. I thought those were very good examples. I don't
know they sound right to me.
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 11 times
Date: Fri Jan 30 2004 2:32 pm
Author: Kuhlenschmidt, Sally <sally.kuhlenschmidt@wku.edu>
Subject: Re: Scales of Measurement
I'm assuming the numbers on the pumps didn't mean anything like volume they
could handle? Probably not.
W/re the sound check-- that's a good one. And yes, you are correct. It is possible to have no sound. We also know the intervals are of equal size representing frequency changes.
Very nice.
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 9 times
Date: Fri Jan 30 2004 5:00 pm
Author: AD
Subject: Re: Scales of Measurement
Okay well I like to read, so that is an ordinal scale because it puts the pages
in order. Phone numbers would be nominal, because it assigns a number but it
doesn't actually mean anything like order or whatever. You could use my mom,
sister, and me as an interval scale. My sister is two inches taller than my
mom, and I'm two inches taller than my sister. I hope these examples are okay.
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 3 times
Date: Sun Feb 1 2004 5:13 pm
Author: Kuhlenschmidt, Sally <sally.kuhlenschmidt@wku.edu>
Subject: Re: Scales of Measurement
Those are pretty good and meaningful to you. W/re the height being interval--
One can conceive of zero height, so you could argue it was a ratio scale. Granted,
it's an abstract notion that mathematicians have, but nevertheless it's there.
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 11 times
Date: Fri Jan 30 2004 10:45 pm
Author: ET
Subject: Re: Scales of Measurement
here we go...
an example of nominal scale would be the numbers on the jerseys of any sports player
an example of ordinal scale would be the score at the end of the game, the one with the highest score is 1st and the lowest score is 2nd.
an example of ratio scale (i think) is the teams record. 1-0, one win and zero losses.
right?
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 6 times
Date: Sun Feb 1 2004 5:13 pm
Author: Kuhlenschmidt, Sally <sally.kuhlenschmidt@wku.edu>
Subject: Re: Scales of Measurement
I like that record of wins as ratio scale. Hadn't heard it before. nice.
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 8 times
Date: Sat Jan 31 2004 8:21 am
Author: KS
Subject: Re: Scales of Measurement
A hobby that I thought of is Kung Fu. Every one starts out at the same level
most of the time, but I do not think that it is an absolute zero because people
already know how to stand and move their arms and feet. Yet they are continually
trying to improve the quality of their movements. The ordinal scale could be
what color sash they wear. For example, black is the highest. I guess the color
or the sash's could also be and interval scale if it is compared to others sash
colors.
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 2 times
Date: Sun Feb 1 2004 5:17 pm
Author: Kuhlenschmidt, Sally <sally.kuhlenschmidt@wku.edu>
Subject: Re: Scales of Measurement
hmmm. body movements aren't really a scale so that doesn't fit. You said quality
of movement and that's not a scale unless they have created one with numbers.
color of sash is a good one for ordinal assuming the difference between two sashes is not just a matter of jumping 2 inches higher than before (or similar). (Inches would be ratio)
Color frequencies would be ratio. In pigments, white is the absence of all color and thus would be the zero.
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 8 times
Date: Sun Feb 1 2004 8:34 am
Author: AJ
Subject: Re: Scales of Measurement
I have three children 5, 6, and 11. These numbers describe them, therefore they
are nominal. If I ranked them in order of birth with 1 being the oldest child
and 3 being the youngest, then the numbers 1, 2, and 3 are ordinal. My oldest
child is 5 years older than the second and the second child is 1.5 years older
than the third child. these numbers would be interval, because they describe
the number of years that are placed between each child.
AJ
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Current Forum: Week 3: Statistics etc. Read 3 times
Date: Sun Feb 1 2004 5:19 pm
Author: Kuhlenschmidt, Sally <sally.kuhlenschmidt@wku.edu>
Subject: Re: Scales of Measurement
Age (or time) has a zero (not born yet) and equal interval therefore it is ratio.
Yes on birth order being ordinal. That term is even used by researchers on birth order.
Their social security numbers would be nominal...no meaningful zero, nor equal intervals.
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